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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 13:17 
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.....for NOT joining in with the standing ovation at the Council House on Tuesday in honour of local soldier Cpl Croucher and his George Cross?

According to the Birmingham Mail there is a storm brewing. And on her own website Salma Yaqoob sees it differently.

Perhaps the councillors who read this can tell us why they stayed seated (well we have heard that) or instead joined in the applause?

I am uncomfortable either way. Part of me thinks we should honour brave soldiers who protect our fellow countrymen in battle and ourselves. But another part of me opposes a war that has resulted in the death of children and people who just want to feed themselves without strife and a war that just creates more hatred towards this nation. I doubt most councillors would understand those of us who have stories from affected relatives belonging to the wider region.

Because Croucher was serving his orders I think he should be respected. Would I have stood up? Probably. But not without a heavy heart and some anger at the lack of support for the innocents killed by our guns.

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Last edited by YahyaMKhan on 03 Feb 2011, 13:41, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 13:31 
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YahyaMKhan wrote:
.....for NOT joining in with the standing ovation at the Council House on Tuesday in honour of local soldier Cpl Croucher and his George Cross?

According to the Birmingham Mail there is a storm brewing. And on her own website Salma Yaqoob sees it differently.

Perhaps the councillors who read this can tell us why they stayed seated or joined in the applause?


From my vantage point in the Council Chamber, only two Councillors sat during the standing ovation - sitting there cross-armed and looking annoyingly straight ahead - those were Cllr Salma Yaqoob and Cllr Ishtiaq.

I stood and applauded, since here was a soldier who had put his life on the line for his colleagues - he threw himself on an exploding grenade to save his comrades - for which he was awarded the George Cross.

It was petty and disrespectful of both Councillors to sit there, with their backs to this soldier, while the rest of the Council Chamber showed their respects.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 13:47 
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Division is what Respect thrives on. The election is approaching so we can be sure that this won't be their last stunt before May.

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 13:55 
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martinmullaney wrote:
It was petty and disrespectful of both Councillors to sit there, with their backs to this soldier, while the rest of the Council Chamber showed their respects.
So do you think Yaqoob is being insincere when she states: "I have every sympathy with Lance Corporal Croucher and all his comrades serving in Afghanistan. Indeed, I have spoken out before now on the disgraceful lack of support that returning soldiers receive from the very governments that sent them to war (including on BBC's Question Time)."?

And what do you think when states, "But I refuse to stand with those politicians who lack the moral courage to question sending our soldiers to lose lives and limbs in a war that they know cannot be won. "?

I have already stated that we should honour this man. But as a politician what do you understand of the terrible worry some of us have when our relatives sacrifice themselves in the wider conflict on a daily basis?

Dominator wrote:
Division is what Respect thrives on. The election is approaching so we can be sure that this won't be their last stunt before May.
Surely that is true of all politics and politicians and why some of us do not vote?

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 14:04 
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Inconsistent, either our boys are donkeys led by lions, which has been oft state dby her and Galloway, in which case she has no need to sit, or our boys are murderous mercenaries in an illegal war or should object conciencoulsy, which she dosent often say and she should sit.

She (he) cant run with the hares and the hounds.

This is a stunt, a cheap stunt. and incocnsistent, had she not come on QT and told us how brave 'our boys' are i could have stomached this nonsense.

Either way RESPECT will win again, in Sparkbrook. So there was no need.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 14:06 
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Just read the statement on her Website.

I agree with everything she says.

We need more more politicians with her courage.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 14:11 
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Her blog blog post, or is it GErs, would make sense if wars could be started and stopped by Birmingham City COuncil, until that is that case, i will say she is inconsistent, ill refrain from calling her a hypocrite for now.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 14:32 
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YahyaMKhan wrote:
And what do you think when states, "But I refuse to stand with those politicians who lack the moral courage to question sending our soldiers to lose lives and limbs in a war that they know cannot be won. "?

Given that I would have stood and have also publicly questioned the current strategy that is an argument that does not work.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 14:48 
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For the first time in my 36-year career in journalism I felt compelled to break with the convention that reporters do not show support for one side or another in council meetings by standing and applauding this brave soldier. Salma's sit-down response was entirely predictable. Paradoxically, had she stood and applauded the story would have been even better - "Stop the war Coalition leader and Respect chair applauds Afghan war hero.....".
She would have rightly been condemned as a hypocrite.
I agree entirely with the editorial column in today's Birmingham Mail, which makes the point that Salma was able to behave in the way she did because people like Matt Croucher have over the years fought to ensure that a very wide measure of free speech "exists in this country.
Voltaire's dictum - "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" - must continue to underpin democracy in any civilised country.

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 14:51 
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One thing for sure we will leave Afghanistan soon and will have achieved
nothing and hundreds of our soldiers will have died for nothing.

Lets not forget the tens of thousands of Afghan people many innocent civilians
including large numbers of women and children who have died or been maimed
with life changing injures.

We don't seem to have any honours or medals for the innocence victims of
this war but as usual we can always ease our conscious and dismiss this as
acceptable "collateral damage".

War is always wrong what ever side you support.

I say bring the troops home sooner rather than later.


Last edited by barnardhobbit on 03 Feb 2011, 15:30, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 15:21 
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barnardhobbit wrote:
I say bring the troupes home sooner rather than later.

Clever misspelling. Deliberate?

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 15:29 
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YahyaMKhan wrote:
So do you think Yaqoob is being insincere when she states: "I have every sympathy with Lance Corporal Croucher and all his comrades serving in Afghanistan. Indeed, I have spoken out before now on the disgraceful lack of support that returning soldiers receive from the very governments that sent them to war (including on BBC's Question Time)."?


Both George Galloway and Salma Yaqoob have talked about the British soldiers being "lions led by donkeys". If they truly believe that to be the case, then they should be prepared to applaud British soldiers for doing their duty.

Remember, Lance Corporal Matthew Croucher has not been awarded a George Cross for killing the Taliban, but for risking his life to save his comrades by lying on top of an exploding grenade.

I can only assume that if one of the failed 21/7 London suicide bombers had been in the Council Chamber last Tuesday, Cllr Yaqoob would have been demanding the Council applaud the failed suicide bomber for their past 'heroic actions'.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 15:31 
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Paul Dale wrote:
Paradoxically, had she stood and applauded the story would have been even better - "Stop the war Coalition leader and Respect chair applauds Afghan war hero.....".
She would have rightly been condemned as a hypocrite.
So are you saying she was damned either way?

barnardhobbit wrote:
We don't seem to have any honours or medals for the innocence victims of
this war but as usual we can always ease our conscious and dismiss this as
acceptable "collateral damage".
I think this is what most do not understand. We now live in a globalised society and cannot ignore our wider responsibilities when we go to war against other nations like we used to. There are consequences to all actions and if the chamber had considered a minute silence for all the war dead in this instance then perhaps there would not have been any headlines.

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 15:33 
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Dominator wrote:
barnardhobbit wrote:
I say bring the troupes home sooner rather than later.

Clever misspelling. Deliberate?
No it was my spelling checker that spelt it that way - So for troupes read Troops


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 15:38 
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Paul Dale wrote:
Paradoxically, had she stood and applauded the story would have been even better - "Stop the war Coalition leader and Respect chair applauds Afghan war hero.....".
She would have rightly been condemned as a hypocrite.


That depends upon what the applause implies. You can recognise the bravery of an individual without agreeing that the war itself was right.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 15:39 
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martinmullaney wrote:
Remember, Lance Corporal Matthew Croucher has not been awarded a George Cross for killing the Taliban, but for risking his life to save his comrades by lying on top of an exploding grenade.
I understand this and is one reason why I would have applauded but you have not considered what some will clearly view as bias against the innocent war dead and those who have given their lives through similarly courageous acts like a child saving her siblings from a burning building or the sacrifice of hunger, displacement and loss of dignity. I think Yaqoob should have stood up, but I also understand her internal conflict. This is much more complex than merely snubbing a war hero.

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 15:45 
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barnardhobbit wrote:
One thing for sure we will leave Afghanistan soon and will have achieved
nothing and hundreds of our soldiers will have died for nothing.

Lets not forget the tens of thousands of Afghan people many innocent civilians
including large numbers of women and children who have died or been maimed
with life changing injures.

We don't seem to have any honours or medals for the innocence victims of
this war but as usual we can always ease our conscious and dismiss this as
acceptable "collateral damage".

War is always wrong what ever side you support.

I say bring the troops home sooner rather than later.



Totally agree...and yes I must admit how does a politician who is fervently against a war show any applause for individuals or collective actions.. its a difficult one to balance surely.


Last edited by Beefheart on 03 Feb 2011, 15:48, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 15:46 
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martinmullaney wrote:
YahyaMKhan wrote:
So do you think Yaqoob is being insincere when she states: "I have every sympathy with Lance Corporal Croucher and all his comrades serving in Afghanistan. Indeed, I have spoken out before now on the disgraceful lack of support that returning soldiers receive from the very governments that sent them to war (including on BBC's Question Time)."?


Both George Galloway and Salma Yaqoob have talked about the British soldiers being "lions led by donkeys". If they truly believe that to be the case, then they should be prepared to applaud British soldiers for doing their duty.

Remember, Lance Corporal Matthew Croucher has not been awarded a George Cross for killing the Taliban, but for risking his life to save his comrades by lying on top of an exploding grenade.

I can only assume that if one of the failed 21/7 London suicide bombers had been in the Council Chamber last Tuesday, Cllr Yaqoob would have been demanding the Council applaud the failed suicide bomber for their past 'heroic actions'.



OH come on MM...thats stretching it.... ;)


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 15:47 
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YahyaMKhan wrote:
There are consequences to all actions and if the chamber had considered a minute silence for all the war dead in this instance then perhaps there would not have been any headlines.


Isn't this exactly what Remembrance Sunday is for?


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 15:52 
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Beefheart wrote:
martinmullaney wrote:
YahyaMKhan wrote:
So do you think Yaqoob is being insincere when she states: "I have every sympathy with Lance Corporal Croucher and all his comrades serving in Afghanistan. Indeed, I have spoken out before now on the disgraceful lack of support that returning soldiers receive from the very governments that sent them to war (including on BBC's Question Time)."?


Both George Galloway and Salma Yaqoob have talked about the British soldiers being "lions led by donkeys". If they truly believe that to be the case, then they should be prepared to applaud British soldiers for doing their duty.

Remember, Lance Corporal Matthew Croucher has not been awarded a George Cross for killing the Taliban, but for risking his life to save his comrades by lying on top of an exploding grenade.

I can only assume that if one of the failed 21/7 London suicide bombers had been in the Council Chamber last Tuesday, Cllr Yaqoob would have been demanding the Council applaud the failed suicide bomber for their past 'heroic actions'.



OH come on MM...thats stretching it.... ;)


not really. What we saw in the Council Chamber last Tuesday was the true face of Cllr Yaqoob. Remember this is someone who wrote glowingly of the benefits of Britain becoming an Islamic Republic - see http://www.hurryupharry.org/wp-content/ ... lama_y.pdf

{EDITED - A statement has been deleted from this post as it is considered unacceptable
we all know what you think about Salma Yaqoob we have all heard it before but to make
such claims as you have here is a step too far. Another BCC councillor got into a lot of
problems by making a similar on-line statement}


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 15:54 
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martinmullaney wrote:
Isn't this exactly what Remembrance Sunday is for?
I am not saying we should, but why not apply that argument to LC Croucher then? Do you honestly think the dead and injured children of Afghanistan and Pakistan are included in our annual war memorial services?

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 16:00 
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martinmullaney wrote:
You have used this quote before. I might be wrong, but do you think Yaqoob is going to misspell her own surname as Yakub? This looks like a scurrilous attempt by someone at impersonation. Or it is just someone else since Salma is a common girls name? Has she been asked or has it been confirmed if this was of her doing?

Here is just one "Salma Yakub" on Faceless

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 16:22 
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Has Salma ever denied writing that? It's certainly a similar writing style to that which she uses.

I don't think there is a story if Salma stands up. It isn't hypocritical.

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 16:26 
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Dominator wrote:
Has Salma ever denied writing that? It's certainly a similar writing style to that which she uses.
Styles can be copied. "Yakub" would be a major faux pas. Perhaps she used to spell it that way as a student. Did a certain Foreign Secretary not advocate hanging during his Oxbridge days?

Dominator wrote:
I don't think there is a story if Salma stands up. It isn't hypocritical.
Tend to agree but your response does not investigate the complex issues behind her choice.

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 18:17 
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martinmullaney wrote:
I can only assume that if one of the failed 21/7 London suicide bombers had been in the Council Chamber last Tuesday, Cllr Yaqoob would have been demanding the Council applaud the failed suicide bomber for their past 'heroic actions'.

Quote:
{EDITED - A statement has been deleted from this post as it is considered unacceptable
we all know what you think about Salma Yaqoob we have all heard it before but to make
such claims as you have here is a step too far. Another BCC councillor got into a lot of
problems by making a similar on-line statement}

:o Just proves what foolish man you are Martin!!! Admin: should of left it up...


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 19:56 
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I joined in the applause.

I do not believe that our troops should have been sent to do what they're doing and I want them to come home but I do respect the act of a person who is prepared to act in such a brave manner in order to save the life of others at the risk of his own.

Just because I don't agree with the war does not mean I can not respect the actions of an individual involved in that war.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 20:26 
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oh well the Daily Mail got hold of it and unliek the Evening Mail just had to put the tag line 'muslim' on it

Don't we live in a free country ?

No one should be forced to stand for anything if they do not want to that is freedom to do what you like

we should not live in a shame culture, I had no respect for Diana a glorified clothes horese, so when we had a minutes silence for her at work, I went outside, lit a fag and chatted to at least 20 others who cared as less as I did, was I wrong then ?

I have the minutes silence for remeberance day and quiet for that

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 20:32 
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Emily the difference is you are not the Leader of the Respect Party and head of Birmingham’s Stop the War Coalition.

The reports say that there was 100 councillors in the council chamber but there are 120 councillors so where was the others ?

This was not on the agenda and Cllr Mohammed Ishtiaq is quoted as saying

'We had no idea that there would be a standing ovation. It was announced at the start of the meeting.

'We were caught unaware but we decided we did not wish to take part.

'We acknowledged Matt Croucher by nodding and smiling in his direction which I think he appreciated.

'We were protesting against the other politicians not against Matt.'

'He is a hero for what he did but he, like many other young men and women, are in a war which is based on a pack of lies.'

Maybe if the Respect Councillors had know before hand they could have chosen not to be in the chamber as other councillors
had done although I guess not for that reason.

As Paul Dale has said "She (they) would have rightly been condemned as a hypocrites if they had applauded a Afghan war hero"

What ever way you look at it they were put on the spot whether that was deliberate or not is debatable.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 21:29 
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barnardhobbit wrote:
'He is a hero for what he did but he, like many other young men and women, are in a war which is based on a pack of lies.'


The Afghanistan War is 'based on a pack of lies'?

Is Councillor Ishtiaq getting his countries mixed up. I accept that it is reasonable to say that the invasion of Iraq was based on a pack of lies. I also accept that the strategy of a land based war against the Taliban in Afghanistan by the NATO troops is debatable. However, I am not aware of any "lies" that lead us into Afghanistan. Unless Cllr Ishtiaq is implying that the 9/11 attacks - which led to the invasion of Afghanistan - was a Jewish conspiracy. Is this what he is really saying?


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 21:30 
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ianrobo wrote:
No one should be forced to stand for anything if they do not want to that is freedom to do what you like

we should not live in a shame culture, I had no respect for Diana a glorified clothes horese, so when we had a minutes silence for her at work, I went outside, lit a fag and chatted to at least 20 others who cared as less as I did, was I wrong then?


OK, a bloke saves his mates lives by diving on top of a grenade. Is there anyone on this board that would do that?

Isn't this about celebrating the act of bravery rather than the politics of it all? If you can't seperate the two then I really feel sorry for you Ian.

And comparing this with the reaction to the 'Peoples Princess' is one of most ridiculous things you've ever written, and there's some strong competition.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 22:06 
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10missing wrote:
OK, a bloke saves his mates lives by diving on top of a grenade. Is there anyone on this board that would do that?


I dont know, but the Admin team edited one of Martin Mullaney post on here to save hes ass... more a less the same in Political terms i guess :|


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 22:16 
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sobs wrote:
10missing wrote:
OK, a bloke saves his mates lives by diving on top of a grenade. Is there anyone on this board that would do that?
I dont know, but the Admin team edited one of Martin Mullaney post on here to save hes ass... more a less the same in Political terms i guess :|


Not really. They were saving their "asses" not his. And I don't think either they or Martin risk actually blown up.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 22:31 
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derogatory wrote:
sobs wrote:
10missing wrote:
OK, a bloke saves his mates lives by diving on top of a grenade. Is there anyone on this board that would do that?
I dont know, but the Admin team edited one of Martin Mullaney post on here to save hes ass... more a less the same in Political terms i guess :|


Not really. They were saving their "asses" not his. And I don't think either they or Martin risk actually blown up.


no but the media would of blown it up... :roll:


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 22:34 
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10missing wrote:
ianrobo wrote:
No one should be forced to stand for anything if they do not want to that is freedom to do what you like

we should not live in a shame culture, I had no respect for Diana a glorified clothes horese, so when we had a minutes silence for her at work, I went outside, lit a fag and chatted to at least 20 others who cared as less as I did, was I wrong then?


OK, a bloke saves his mates lives by diving on top of a grenade. Is there anyone on this board that would do that?

Isn't this about celebrating the act of bravery rather than the politics of it all? If you can't seperate the two then I really feel sorry for you Ian.

And comparing this with the reaction to the 'Peoples Princess' is one of most ridiculous things you've ever written, and there's some strong competition.


actually I would have stood and applauded

what I do not like is the moral imperative and mock faux pas outrage when others do not

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 22:46 
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Emily Cox wrote:
I joined in the applause.

I do not believe that our troops should have been sent to do what they're doing and I want them to come home but I do respect the act of a person who is prepared to act in such a brave manner in order to save the life of others at the risk of his own.

Just because I don't agree with the war does not mean I can not respect the actions of an individual involved in that war.


Totally agree with Emily Cox.

Whether we should have our troops there and fought the war intially is one issue.

Whether our troops are brave and deserving our praise is a separate one.

This individual is worthy of the highest praise.

I have total respect for him and his colleagues.

Selma's position was not unique, the Lib Dems were opposed to the war but were still able to applause.

The 2 councillors are a disgrace and their subsequent comments pathetic.

Anyone who tries to support or justify their position should be ashamed.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 22:55 
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Differentiate, please.

I bitterly oppose the war - always have done. It became a gruesome killing field in all senses & I hold Bush responsible.

However - I understand it was the MAN, who was being honoured. For a supreme act of courage and bravery. For that alone, I would have cheered to the rafters. He did not ask to be sent; for all we know he and his colleagues oppose the war. But they are soldiers. They do what they are told, go where sent and are proud to do their duty; they understand courage, fear, doubt and bravery. And when called on to make the sacrifice, they do it.

They may well be led by donkeys; that's a different issue. But honour is due to those that truly deserve it. This young man can walk tall, and be proud.
I'm sure Cllr Yaqoob meant no disrespect to the man - she was probably in a difficult position; damned if you do and damned if you don't. Those of us who are not politicians can express ourselves freely without being hung out to dry. Glad I'm not one.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 23:09 
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ianrobo wrote:
10missing wrote:
ianrobo wrote:
No one should be forced to stand for anything if they do not want to that is freedom to do what you like

we should not live in a shame culture, I had no respect for Diana a glorified clothes horese, so when we had a minutes silence for her at work, I went outside, lit a fag and chatted to at least 20 others who cared as less as I did, was I wrong then?


OK, a bloke saves his mates lives by diving on top of a grenade. Is there anyone on this board that would do that?

Isn't this about celebrating the act of bravery rather than the politics of it all? If you can't seperate the two then I really feel sorry for you Ian.

And comparing this with the reaction to the 'Peoples Princess' is one of most ridiculous things you've ever written, and there's some strong competition.


actually I would have stood and applauded

what I do not like is the moral imperative and mock faux pas outrage when others do not


Sorry Ian, but there IS a moral imperative here and the sense of outrage is real. Plenty more have said it on this thread - the politics has nothing to do with it - perhaps those who sat could instead have shown some maturity rather than pandering to the baser instincts of their electorate.


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 23:13 
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your right DM, if a politician is not seen to be the 'right thing' they are hung out to dry

remember the fuss when Skinner crossed his fingers the first time when being sworn in ?

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 23:20 
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ianrobo wrote:
your right DM, if a politician is not seen to be the 'right thing' they are hung out to dry

remember the fuss when Skinner crossed his fingers the first time when being sworn in ?


Princess Di? Dennis Skinner? You don't help yourself do you?


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2011, 23:25 
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Vince wrote:
Anyone who tries to support or justify their position should be ashamed.
Oh spare us the sanctimonious lecturing. Say it like Dancing Mabel but please do not turn objectors into evil-doers.

Have you had any of your indigenous brethren blown up in the region? Can you not see the dilemma and bitterness for some? Dancing Mabel is right; differentiate and try to put aside political differences over the rights and wrongs of a war for what a man has done in isolation.

Perhaps what is being asked here is this: L C Croucher did what he did for his mates, but would he (or any hero) have done the same for a group of Afghan children? And when you have children being killed by Allied ammunition the issue becomes complex. And when you save your mates so they can go and kill even more children - albeit as collateral damage, the issue becomes even more complex.

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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2011, 00:07 
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I am very anti-war but I think I would have stood up but as Yahya says
I have never had a relative of mine blown up, I do know that Salma did have
a female relative of hers killed by a bomb in Pakistan only last year.

I do have a sort of relative (half sister to my children) who has just married
her childhood sweet heart who is a serving solider who is a very nice young
man who is off to Afghanistan in a few months.

I spent Christmas with them and Boxing Day dinner was down to them both.

He drove the family and myself around London from A to B while I was down
there for Christmas.

That said it did not stop several members of the family been critical of what
his role in Afghanistan will be and told him so.

I think we should all take note of what L/Cpl Matt Croucher is quoted as saying

"Obviously not everyone is behind the work we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan and they have their point of view."

As his mother Margaret Croucher said:

'It is a surprising thing to have happened. I don't think Matt expected to be caught in the middle of a row.

'I am disappointed but like Matt said after it happened, everyone is entitled to their opinion whatever it may be.'


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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2011, 00:11 
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barnardhobbit wrote:
I do know that Salma did have a female relative of hers killed by a bomb in Pakistan only last year.


In Pakistan? Who planted the bomb?


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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2011, 00:15 
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martinmullaney wrote:
barnardhobbit wrote:
I do know that Salma did have a female relative of hers killed by a bomb in Pakistan only last year.


In Pakistan? Who planted the bomb?
How do you expect me to know ?


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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2011, 00:20 
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And this brings me to what barnardhobbit stated earlier in the day:
barnardhobbit wrote:
What ever way you look at it they were put on the spot whether that was deliberate or not is debatable.
When you start to add various layers of complexity to the entire issue, time to consider is exactly what some people would require. It took me an age to decide because I had so many strings being pulled at the same time. For some it is a no-brainer. To others more subtle thought processes have to be considered. And fair play to L C Croucher and his mother for their dignity. I bet he would have put his life on the line for Afghan children

Cllr Mullaney wrote:
In Pakistan? Who planted the bomb?
Cause and effect. From the "War on Terror" in Helmand to a bomb questioning loyalties in Peshawar. It is all linked. It is subtle. It is yet another layer of complexity infecting the minds of those that care to consider it.

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Last edited by YahyaMKhan on 04 Feb 2011, 00:21, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2011, 00:21 
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barnardhobbit wrote:
martinmullaney wrote:
barnardhobbit wrote:
I do know that Salma did have a female relative of hers killed by a bomb in Pakistan only last year.


In Pakistan? Who planted the bomb?
How do you expect me to know ?


You seem to know alot about Cllr Yaqoob. Your message implied that the bomb was planted by the UK, therefore excusing Cllr Yaqoob for her disrespectful treatment of Lance Corporal Croucher.

I am simply challenging your view as complete nonsense.


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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2011, 00:29 
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DancingMabel wrote:
However - I understand it was the MAN, who was being honoured. For a supreme act of courage and bravery. For that alone, I would have cheered to the rafters. He did not ask to be sent; for all we know he and his colleagues oppose the war. But they are soldiers. They do what they are told, go where sent and are proud to do their duty; they understand courage, fear, doubt and bravery. And when called on to make the sacrifice, they do it.

'i was only following orders' - that was tried at Nuremburg and didn't wash. We do not have conscription in this country and thus those individuals who choose to sign up do so of their own free will. Going one step further those who signed up or renlisted in the last ten years did so in the knowledge that they may well end up in Iraq and / or Afghanistan and in my view that shows their at least tacit support for our involvement in those conflicts.

The more I am reading about this story the more it sounds like a deliberate attempt at points scoring against Respect. Do we know who invited Mr. Croucher, not a Birmingham resident or from a Birmingham based Regiment, to the meeting?

Perhaps if they had known what was planned then perhaps the two muslim Councillors in question would have been wise to vacate the chamber prior to those events, just as the christian Conservative Councillor did in Portsmouth the other week.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/politics/councillor_leaves_meeting_to_avoid_islamic_prayer_1_2345355


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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2011, 00:30 
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martinmullaney wrote:
You seem to know alot about Cllr Yaqoob. Your message implied that the bomb was planted by the UK, therefore excusing Cllr Yaqoob for her disrespectful treatment of Lance Corporal Croucher.

I am simply challenging your view as complete nonsense.
I only know what she has said which if I remember correctly was at a Ward Committee Meeting.

As for my views being complete nonsense then you should know as you are a known Master
of coming out with Complete Nonsense at the drop of a Hat.


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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2011, 00:41 
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evo102 wrote:
'i was only following orders' - that was tried at Nuremburg and didn't wash. We do not have conscription in this country and thus those individuals who choose to sign up do so of their own free will. Going one step further those who signed up or renlisted in the last ten years did so in the knowledge that they may well end up in Iraq and / or Afghanistan and in my view that shows their at least tacit support for our involvement in those conflicts.

The more I am reading about this story the more it sounds like a deliberate attempt at points scoring against Respect. Do we know who invited Mr. Croucher, not a Birmingham resident or from a Birmingham based Regiment, to the meeting?

Perhaps if they had known what was planned then perhaps the two muslim Councillors in question would have been wise to vacate the chamber prior to those events, just as the christian Conservative Councillor did in Portsmouth the other week.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/politics/councillor_leaves_meeting_to_avoid_islamic_prayer_1_2345355
And yet another couple of layers of complexity. I now have no doubt the Respect councillors feel they were ambushed. Accusations of scowling faces against L C Croucher by "disrespectful" politicians now seem deviously contrived.

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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2011, 01:07 
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...and meanwhile, the terrorist threat remains.


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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2011, 07:24 
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10missing wrote:
but there IS a moral imperative here


Really? What is it? Follow the majority? Go against your beliefs? Always support the military? (To avoid tedious comebacks can I say that I am not indicating support for the refusniks).

10missing wrote:
…and the sense of outrage is real.


I think it's a mixture of real and synthetic. The soldier wasn't outraged.


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