Re~Stirred Forum

Fergus, with me you would, without doubt end up as the Prime Minister, but we would have to burn those special accountancy magazines first.

I have heard a rumour, that might be of interest to the Lib Dems. I have at present not had any credible evidence given to me but have been told that it is available and I am going to have a look at it shortly to see if it is of interest to them. Will keep you updated if anything develops.

Your question Gerry lib dems do they care and do they have a heart? from what I have read on this thread , in no way will the libdems or torries admit that the cuts they have imposed upon us all , are affecting the more vunerable in our society , and middle income families to the point that children are going hungry-IN BRITAIN.
As for moving to find work , for goodness sake I thought it was common knowledge , that because people have been forced out of the areas they were raised in to find work , was a main factor of why communities no longer exist as they once did , where people knew each other , shared the good and bad times, watched out for one another.
The "posh boys" would never understand that , may even see it as an intrusion that everyone knew each other, also living in such close proximity.
When I was at uni, a discription of the three main parties and how they operated, was given that stayed with me.
= you have an accident and break your leg. how would any of the three parties help you?.----
Labour --would give you 2 crutches to assist you walking untill you could walk unaided
Liberals or Libdems would give you one crutch to help untill you could walk unaided
Conservatives/Tories would tell you to get up and walk, stop moaning.
If someone is "working class " and they vote -conservative that person in effect "shoots" themselves in the foot.
The libdems linked up with the conservatives for that bit of power , they dont care or have a heart

If the country goes bust we won't be able to help anyone. The crutches analogy is complete rubbish.

And a great way to make the country go bust is to cut like made, and so raise the bills for unemployment benefits etc , decrease tax revenues etc, watch as the retraction in the public sector affects the private one as money is pulled out of the system... then you go 'ohmigod ... where are in a double dip recession .... what can we do? Cut more that's the answer'

Yeah. Brilliant.

If and mostly likely lib dems hav a disatrous night on may 3rd,,will this signal the end of the lib dems??

Actually no. All of this depends on a number of factors including economic multipliers. The idea that we can spend ourselves out of bankruptcy is a fallacy. There is a demand and timing issue which is why the government is only cutting at about the rate that Labour proposed (in terms of real terms cuts).

There are people calling for an acceleration of cuts. My view, as I have said, is that increases in energy costs will reduce economic activity (as one of a number of factors).

The concept that we are bankrupt is the fallacy here John. If you're going to start with an absurd proposition then you distort the entire debate.

In the end you cannot eat money. The "economy" is about people doing things for other people. If you simply generate a lot more money without having a lot more activity then the money cannot be exchanged for as much.

What you need to look at is what the constraints are on economic activity. Demand is one of them. However, there are also systems of feedback (such as the interest rates of sovereign debt). Personally I think energy prices have been under considered as part of economic forecasting. In some senses all energy prices are linked as it is possible to convert from one source of energy to another. For example the Gas to Liquid plant in Qatar. However, each process of conversion as a rule loses some energy.

The idea that by the state increasing demand sufficient additional economic activity is created such that the state's tax take is greater than the additional cost is a general nonsense although there are smaller areas where over time this can help. In fact some of these are research projects, but this is really project dependent. Although I have not seen the treasury publish this I do think they look at issues of economic multipliers.

In a crisis it is worth the state acting to stop some institutions going bust depending upon what the knock on effects are. It is also in my view better not to simply cut the deficit in one year because of the wider impacts. However, it remains that the solution to insolvency is not to spend more.

Thank you John, I genuinely laughed at the idea of Chief Bull Sitting Hemming (that was the right way round for that title wasn't it?). Perhaps if we avoided the native American sayings that were invented for a television show, it might be helpful.


I agree that the economy is just human activity. The problem comes when you place restrictions on that human activity such as through the removal of the lubrication (money). Without a facility of exchange, economic activity falls (read Milton Friedman on the Great Depression).

I find your position somewhat contradictory as your government has been in the practice of creating a huge amount of money for the benefit of a relatively few economic agents (the banks). In fact the entire western world's central banks (including the BoE) have been in a frenzy of creating money which is heading towards $10trn since the crash of 2008. Never in the field of human history has so much been printed for the benefit of so few...

So spare me the hypocrisy John. If you gave some money to ordinary people, they would generate real economic activity. Instead, this printing has gone to paying off imaginary debts created by the banks for the purposes of enriching themselves at the expense of ordinary people.

So what is quantitative easing about?

We use over£200 billion to purchase back the government loan stock held by banks, so that banks have a greater liquidity and lend more money to business and individuals so that they can spend more and increase demand in the economy which business than has to expand to supply that increased demand, employment goes up, people can obtain mortgages buy new houses and all the guff that goes in them and we have an economic boom. More employment, more tax revenue coming in, more government spending.

All great as long as we don't spend that money abroad and increase their economies.

The problem is that it just ain't working, forget the politics for a moment, it is ordinary people that are suffering.

The institute for financial studies states that we still have some 88% of cuts yet to bite, now before John Hemming trashes that statement, his own party is using that organisation's information.

Obviously some liberal democrats don't care and have the incomes to ensure that they and their loved ones are not in any way inconvenienced by the cut backs.

So whats your view of the US 'state' aided auto industry?

Great post Kate!
Yes more money in ordinary people's pockets is the way to revive an economy

Quantitative easing specifically does not involve just printing money and using it directly to create demand.

John Hemming.

Best tell your Conservative Masters that one.

Any news on the {Edited} Councillor and the referral to West Midlands Police?

My masters are the electors in Birmingham, Yardley.

Any news on the other point about a {Edited} councillor and allegations in relation to the Representation of the People Act being investigated councillor and allegations in relation to the Representation of the People Act being investigated by the police?

I dont think so !!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for mentioning Conservative Masters, that was a bit sexist, I should have also made reference to mistresses, Mr Hemming.

So it should have read, your Conservative Masters and Mistresses.

I am sure you will alter your post to include electors in Yardley being your masters and your mistresses.

Interesting analogy Sally, although I think the following analogy would be more accurate:

Labour would give you a wheelchair, pay someone to push you around in the wheelchair and reassure you that the state will take care of everything from now on.

The Conservatives would pay for your crutches for as long as is neccessary, whilst encouraging your relatives and family to care for you until your legs are strong enough to walk.

Lib Dems? Would promise you a wheelchair, turn up with one crutch and then leave you to it.

Given that the government's cuts are in a numerical sense quite close to those proposed by Labour all of this is meaningless.

In any event social care has been means tested and still is.

Tonight a main story of the news , we saw people having to go to food stations for free food handouts, parents admitting they had to forget their pride , and go to food stations to feed their children.
soup kitchens will return soon , free shoes from the evening mail.

Individual cases need to be looked at properly. There are people in the UK who are not allowed to claim benefits. This, however, is not new.

Given that 90% of the cuts have yet to be implemented, and public spending levels are roughly on the same level that they were in 2009, I'd love to know how government cuts have precipitated this situation.

"this situation" is a misrepresentation of reality. The BBC are really bad at representing the truth of the situation. I have been on programmes where the underlying story is basically wrong. (Radio 5).

When I deal with casework I can go into all the details of someone's case. Yes there are people without financial support, but these are mainly either people with access to resources or immigrants of some form (mainly failed asylum seekers) who have no right to public support.

I am sure individual Liberal Democrats are just as moral in their personal lives as members of other political parties. The real issue is whether their impact on politics has been benign over the last few years. Since the Iraq War the Liberal Democrats have made great play of being to the left of the Blairite Labour Party and claimed they would never make the compromises in Government that the two main parties did.

Since 2010 we have seen just how little basis there was in their claims to be the guardians of liberal democracy and social justice. In particular they have swallowed whole the Big Lie about the economy. This is the orthodoxy exploded in the 1930s that you need to reduce government expenditure when the country goes into recession. The opposite is the case - expenditure needs to increase in order to prevent the worst consequences of a slump and in order to stimulate the economy. Now we have a double dip recession at a time when America is using government spending to turn its economy round.

Of course the Liberal Democrats are not alone - other parties of the Right have been in power across Europe and conspired to aggravate our financial troubles. The likely election of a Socialist in France gives us all a chance to wake up before financial hardship turns into political disaster.

The last 2 years have shown that the Lib Dems do not have the ideas or the enthusiasm to stand up to the Tories.

Well under the Lib Dems the 1000 most wealthies people in this country, worth about £440 billion have seen a significant increase in their wealth during this period of austerity.
The POSH boys and millionaire MPs of course will be unable to see how we are not all in it together.

The Lib Dems are supporters of growth in the economy, well that paert that includes the billionaires.

There is an argument for increasing capital spend, but beyond the usual payments for unemployment there is not an argument for increasing revenue spend.

This is the argument we put forward at the General Election.

We also face particular problems with energy scarcity and hence pricing of energy that cannot be avoided merely be increasing consumption.

In the mean time, however, we have protected people on lower incomes.

It may be that your approach will be tested in France or further tested in Greece. However, I think that both countries will in the end come back from the brink.

130.000 families now using food banks in uk, 190 food banks open throughout the uk, 88 have opened since 2011.
Not just the odd family findong themselves in crisis and hungry.
Google "find a food bank" -fare share comes up for b'ham , it is in Nechelles- contact person Pam Tank. phone number available.
You may not be able to talk about individual cases Johnhemmings, do you doubt published figures?