Re~Stirred Forum

He's had his chance and failed miserably.

If murder isn't an escalation in violence, then I don't know what is. Last night the police seem to have managed to largely move rioters out of the inner core in to surrounding residential areas, so that ordinary people's property got wrecked. Personally, I'd rather Tesco be looted than people's property damaged.

Chris Simms needs to be sacked immeadiately this morning and a competent replacement found.

It is too late in the crisis to change leadership at the moment, officers on the ground risking their lives to protect the community and to hold things together need to feel that there is a robust command structure supporting them.

Once the crisis is over the police authority should act quickly and with determination to remove the Chief Constable, his handling of the riots have shown flaws, the fiasco over the Spy Camera issue in parts of the city directed at sections of our community should have rung alarm bells.

I saw the impact of his 'robust' police response last night, more disorder and damage.

No excuses, no quarter, the criminal action that has occured in the city has no justification and can not be excused, but it was and is the Chief Constables job to prevent it and if unavble to do that stop it.

His one chance is to ensure that absolutely no incidents occur in the city tonight.

The police authority must take a lead and issue him with a command, stop the violence or go!

Please can we all manage some knee control.

There is a real question about the police standing back and not intervening at the start of these distrubances, but it's the same question as is being asked about the Met. So blaming the present Chief Constable is simplistic.

It is not necessarily a knee jerk reaction it is in my opinion one that I have thought about and in consideration of other policing decisions made since Chris Simms took up office, I feel that we may need to find a replacement before any other issues arise.

I am sure the Chief Constable is a great guy, but this is the country’s second city and our reputation nationally and world wide must be protected.

The Chief constable may be spending too much time involved in the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and advocating the retention of DNA samples of innocent, un-convicted citizens, disproportionately from BME communities, rather than, in my opinion, concerning himself with policing of Birmingham.

Questions may also need to be asked about the Police Authority itself and its subdued response to the situation, it should also show strong leadership and direction as failure to do so may give support to the campaign for elected police and crime commissioners.

Someone might even resurrect the issue of having an elected Chief Police Officer.

We will no doubt have an enquiry, investigation, report in the months following these riots just as we did following the previous riots, but will we learn the lessons.

Democracy is a fragile thing and policing is an important aspect of a democratic system, to strong a level of policing and we become a police state, too soft a level and we become a society of crime and disorder.

If the people move in a direction in too large a number then the police cannot stop them other than by bullets as we see in the Middle East etc.

Our police force is an expensive entity of trained professionals and as such should now bring the situation to an end.

It is a sad thing that we as a society can not cope with those things we should be prepared for, the classic snow at winter bringing our cities to a stand still while other countries carry on in greater adverse weather conditions.

I just think that Simms has failed -

1. to anticipate the scale of problems
2. to organise sufficient resources to deal with the trouble
3. to plan effective tactics to deal with the disturbances
4. to motivate his officers

He has to go today, so that someone can replace him who is able to deal with the trouble.

He should really have gone after the ANPR fiasco.

Does anyone want to ask under FOI how many times the CC is collected/returned home by

chauffeur driven car or Helicopter ???!!!!!!

The reality in my opinion is that he will be praised by the politicians and the great and good in the city and will survive, unless the actions of those that would praise him are questioned, such as where was our local political leadership in this crisis, if they are faced with any pressure they may look for a scapegoat, someone to take the blame off them and divert the political heat.

I must agree with derogatory. we pay the Chief Constable a lot of money to do the job we require, is he doing that job well?
Some of the shops in Birmingham may not indicate that and the fires that have brought shame to our city.

I think the Chief Consatble has a chauffer driven silver Jaguar, this should be sold and he can use a marked police car like any other officer.

How come their HR chappie had use of an unmarked Police car that was stolen off his Drive ??

Very strange !!!!!!!

The strange tale Tiptonslasher refers to instead in the previous post.

The WMP Director of Resources, a civilian post, was reported as having his BMW car fitted with "blues & twos" stolen recently; a story picked up on a few blog-sites and behind a pay-wall in 'Police Review'.

The car was - apparently - purchased under a vehicle purchase scheme offered to WMP, open to officers over the rank of Superintendent; the details are obscure. For reasons that elude explanation the cars purchased by Asst. Chief Constable and the Director of Resources are fitted with "blues & twos", which makes them 'police vehicles'. Being 'police vehicles' they appear not to be eligible for Vehicle Excise Licences.

This matter has been raised by several puzzled onlookers, especially those who have fitted the "blues & twos", only to be told - being polite - don't ask.

this kind of corruption is the kind that these riots should tell us HAS to be rooted out because we really are not 'all in this together' possibly the worse ever political slogan

Not really corruption, just inappropriate.

no corruption, he is not entitled to that so claiming it when he would never be on active duty IS corruption

we don't know the terms of his contract.

I cannot believe it, a colleague of mine who tells me he is in the know, has said that Chief Constable Chris Simms is almost certain to be considered for a Knighthood at the end of the year. I understand that he has a long service record but I would think that a nomination might be a bit premature. I understand that it is normally a matter of course to award for long service the Queen's Police Medal and for Chief Constables a Knighthood.

I must admit I thought he already had a Knighthood or was that the last Chief Constable?

Yes he has one !

He puts it on every time he goes to bed and it has a blue light on the Top !!!!

I've no idea if Chris Simms will get a knighthood.

His predecessor, Sir Paul Scott-Lee was appointed Chief Constable of West Midlands Police in September 2002, and knighted in the Queen's Birthday Honours in June 2007. He retired in May 2009.

Speaking up in favour of the Chief Constable Jack Domey MP:

And David Cameron:

Link:http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2011/08/12/west-midlands-police-under-pressure-to-reverse-police-cuts-97319-29222198/

Last night I was having a couple of pints after work with a colleague who lives in the Jewellery Quarter, scene of a lot of the trouble on Tuesday night. To get home, he had to go through a cordon and show his driving licence to the Police as proof of his address. When he asked the PC what to do in the event of any problems at his home address he was told "If I were you sir, I would try and stay somewhere else tonight, because if anything does happen we may not be able to get to you". Needless to say he packed an emergency bag and has made arrangements to stay elsewhere for the last few days.

The PC, in our view was being entirely honest. We both felt the Police failed to anticipate the trouble on Tuesday and that officers should have been drafted in from neighbouring forces (another friend who lives in Shrewsbury reported they've had no trouble at all so some resources could have been drafted from West Mercia to support WMP officers on the ground in Birmingham and Wolverhampton). Had there been the presence on Tuesday around Birmingham that there was on Wednesday evening, a lot of this may have been nipped in the bud. The West Midlands Police Authority needs to ask Sims what planning was done in preparation of Tuesday evening and whether help was asked for from West Mercia, Warwickshire and Staffordshire forces.

but that is equally applicable to every other area on tuesday night, I think the police wanted to stop London first then move resources elsewhere on Wednesday

That's not really the case is it - the same 'extra' police in Birmingham on Wednesday had not been in London on Tuesday, had they?

What I don't understand is why the police did not have plans of how to deal with the situation well in advance. Do they not plan for major incidents such as this?

this was unique, their plans are for old fashioned ones like the EDL, football violence where you have two sides. Watch the vids on you tube from Mon/Tues, almost impossible to control. The fatal Mistake I think was not locking down the city centr e on tuesday.

Just because something has not happened before does not mean it cannot be anticipated as a possibility and planned for.

oh it was a failure for sure but every chief constable failed in areas hit

Aren't the police and local authorities required to have plans to deal with major peace time


emergencies?

Yes there is a legal requirement on local authorities and the emergency services to plan for emergencies. The Civil Contingencies Act being the latest law:http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/content/civil-contingencies-act

This area of responsibility alas has migrated downwards of late in terms of priority and the involvement of senior staff. In local authorities traditionally Emergency Planning Officers (EPO) were at the helm, much reduced since the end of the 'Cold War', even after the advent of 'new' threats, flooding, terrorism and more. Have a peek at:http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/ukresilience and check your own local authority website for resilience and EPO numbers.

I have sympathy for the police, when watching teh videos if they had tried to chased they would have broken up. In my view on the Monday nothing they could do except what they did

On the news today I heard an interesting statistic that, stated that only 12% of all police officers are actually out on the streets at any one time. This would indicate that in an emergency many other officers could be put on the streets as needed.

The ordinary police officer did his or her best and I am sure no one would criticise them, given the stress that those officers went through. The command and control systems were under the ambit of the senior officers, most being safe in the Tally Ho command centre watching on big plasma screens the destruction of parts of our city. But the government states that we have one of the most expensive yet innefficient police systems in the world and today has emphasised that it is the largest unreformed body in the country.

It is unfortunate that we can not export the experience and knowledge gained by police involved in policing Northern Ireland, that only a month ago employed water cannon, batton rounds and public order tactics.

The buck stops with the chief and if we have a robust police authority, they should be asking relevant questions on what happened. If we have a police authority that does not take a lead then it will ensure that elected Crime and Police Commissioners are the way forward.

We are now in the period when everyone blames someone else.

Let me thank my postman that did his job and delivered my mail, my local newsagent that got my paper delivered and the tens of thousands of Birmingham people that just did the job they are paid for, I paid for a Chief Police officer to do the job he was paid for, did he do it, that is the question that the Police Authority, Local Councillors, MPs and the decision makers in our country need to ensure is answered.

and take out those officers on holiday, on sickness leave, in court duty and yes doing paper work which is more now civvies are being sacked.

The tories throw that figure around so lets throw another at 12% proposed labour cuts the cheif officers agreed no need for front line cuts, so why not go back to those plans eh ?

Gerry posted a few posts back:

This figure comes from a 2011 report by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC), a supposedly independent body and widely known for being close to the Home Office. The report is here:http://www.hmic.gov.uk/media/demanding-times-20110330.pdf

In the past the Home Office has always assumed 40% of police officers were always 'abstracted' from duty by annual leave, court, training and sickness. Factor that in, with 24/7 coverage and that is 67% theoretically available for public duty.

The HMIC report shows West Midlands Police are below, with 10% availability. Sadly the HMIC report combines police officers and PCSOs, which may conceal how few police officers are available and in 'frontline' duties.