Re~Stirred Forum

Thompson have sent letters out dated 15/3/12 stating that BCC put forward an improved offer, but was not good enough, Thompsons put a counter offer. BCC stated they need to go away and get further authority before they could respond, as another meeting has been arranged for the 29/3/12. I hope this of use

Thanks Simon , i received a letter from "Thompsons" this morning, it implies both parties want to put an end to the litigation, on the 29th, Well maybe if someone with some bloody authority , from B.C.C. had been at the meeting on the 14th , the litigation could have been settled then!. Lets hope this authorative figure attends the meeting on the 29th March and agree's settlments.
Next- has anyone heard about the Allowences, the unions are not responding to queries, and "h.r." say they know nothing?

Does anyone know what BCC offered - I understand Thompsons want 60 - 65%, equal to that Sefan Cross won for their clients, in real terms when you take out the 10% that Sefan Cross took + vat.

With regards to the Sefan Cross and other no win no fees lawyers I understand BCC had to pay in the region of 400 million, this money was secured via central Government capitalisation and this was back in 2010, they have also secured further monies to payout the next wave of back pay, i do not know if this is to cover wave 2 of back pay for those who went through no win no fee lawyers which is to be paid in June/July. Sefan Cross have stated that the average pay back is £138,000 but i think they were looking at 100% pay back, knowing those who have/are getting back pay it has ranged between £80,00 - £100,00 which is around the 65% mark. i also understand one grade 5 has been found BCC getting bonuses etc - Stefan Cross and other commemorators on this matter are estimating the final cost to BCC could be around the 3 billion mark

BCC has enough assets to off-set the loan within Birmingham, UK and abroad. If BCC cannot pay off the debt then for example Government could become the owner of The Council House, thus becoming a UK asset. Deals have been struck the fact is we are only worker or Citizens of Birmingham- we will never know the truth what has been done behind closed doors. Please be reminded the Auditor Mark Stocks said - this is cut and pasted from the Chamberlainfiles.wordpress.com posted on the 10/1/12

Concerns are growing about the scale of a huge equal pay compensation bill facing Birmingham City Council, with external auditors insisting the matter is so serious it can only be discussed behind closed doors.

District Auditor Mark Stocks said he could only brief councillors privately about the consequences of a test case involving 174 women who used to work for the council as cooks, cleaners and caterers.

The women recently persuaded the Court of Appeal to allow their compensation demands against the council to be heard in the High Court – raising the possibility of a back-pay bill running into several million pounds.

The council is already staring at financial nightmare over the equal pay issue and has set aside £300 million to compensate women who for years were denied hefty bonuses paid to male workers, thanks to union deals that rewarded male manual workers with guaranteed bonuses for doing little more than turning up to work.

But the Appeal Court ruling takes matters a giant step forward by breaking with English legal tradition which has always seen equal pay claims contested at employment tribunal

The council has asked the supreme court for permission to appeal against the ruling, but if that proves unsuccessful and the 174 women win their High Court case, the floodgates for compensation demands from former employees could open.

The city could face a compensation bill that some legal experts believe will be far in excess of £300 million and may even approach the £1 billion mark. Such a figure might require some kind of Government rescue package to keep the council afloat.

Mr Stocks, addressing the council Audit Committee, said: “I am happy to have a private session on equal pay, but I am not prepared to say anything in public because I don’t think it is helpful to the people of Birmingham.”
Mr Stocks is yet to sign off the council’s 201-11 accounts as an accurate record after uncovering “materially misstated financial statements” and “inadequate working papers.

Having been trawling through the £3.5 billion of accounts since the end of June, and even moving in to work alongside council finance officials in an attempt to get to get through the paperwork, Mr Stocks has concluded that he will not be in a position to give a green light until the end of January at the earliest.

Two years ago, Mr Stocks issued similar dire warnings and eventually signed off the council’s accounts with a qualified opinion – accountancy speak for ‘there are aspects here I can’t agree with’. It was the first time in the council’s history that a qualified opinion had been handed down, and marked a highly embarrassing moment for Birmingham’s Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition.

A shake-up of the finance department was promised then, but this did not enable the 2010-11 audit to take place without hitches. To complicate the process further, the council had for the first time to comply with International Financial Reporting Standards (IFRS) which introduce the same higher level of compliance applicable to FTSE-100 companies.

Mr Stocks discovered that the city’s computer systems, which are supposed to have been transformed, were not configured to cope with IFRS. “This proved more complex than anyone foresaw”, he told the Audit Committee.
However, a council press release on Mr Stocks’s 32-page audit letter insisted: “The letter concludes that the council manages its finances well and continues to drive service improvement despite receiving less money from the Government as part of the national deficit reduction plan.”

The press release went on to quote council leader Mike Whitby: “I am encouraged by the findings contained within this year’s annual audit letter – it is an important, independent document which accurately summarises the council’s progress over the last year.”

Cabinet finance member, Randal Brew, told the Audit Committee he accepted all of the criticisms levelled by Mr Stocks. Coun Brew (Con Northfield) added: “Having worked as an auditor for 40 years, these are statements I am not comfortable with. We have been down an extremely difficult road and I wouldn’t seek to persuade Mr Stocks to change these statements. They are uncomfortable but valid statements.”

When quizzed by councillors, Mr Stocks sought to moderate his report by insisting that the audit letter generally represented good news in that the council was delivering required spending cuts and using borrowing to improve public services.

The city’s borrowing will peak at £2.5 billion in 2012, although that is still below the maximum allowed by the Government. However, repaying money already borrowed is beginning to eat into council finances. By 2013-14, more than a quarter of the revenue budget – some £268 million – will have to be used to repay debt for projects like the new library and the housing renovation scheme.

i have recently found out today that staff who left the council either by redundancy or there own agreement will not be paid allowance backpay the same time as the current workers as bcc have stated that we are not important as the current workers, i have also been informed today that more than likely the leavers from bcc will have to fight in a civil court for monies that are owed this is totally unacceptable as i worked for bcc for 14 years and that money is what i worked for and is rightfully mine,the unions however are fully aware of this and some unions are not being totally honest with there members someone needs to stand up and be counted this is discusting!!!!!!!!

Hear, hear becks48.
I posted the type of shifts i used to work on this forum, i am still paying "G.M.B." the full membership fee, just the same as people still "fortunate" enough to have a job working for B.C.C.
I was still in the employment of B.C.C. when the new contract came into force Nov 2011, that removed the same said -allowences. I want my wages owed from 2007/8 to oct 31st 2011.
I and my colleagues who worked at Stuarts road children's home are well aware of what B.C.C. think of their employee's
, however we adhered to our contract B.C.C. BREACHED THEIR SIDE OF THE CONTRACT BY WITHOLDING WAGES ,THE ALLOWENCES
ARE PART OF THE WAGE NOT SEPERATE . EX-B.C.C employee's wont be giving in on this , B.C.C. already agreed to re-pay what
was owed ,to avoid costly court cases. if thats how us ex -employee's have to get our wages the fight is on .

this was raised in a Cabinet Meeting on the 1 /3/2011

bear in mind that a driver is a grade 3 and loader a grade 2, however when you times their hourly rate by 36.5 and 12mth the driver is earning the same as a grade 4 and the loader a grade 3, then you add on their bonuses overtime etc, they are on a good whack.
City Council – 1 March 2011

WRITTEN QUESTION TO THE CABINET MEMBER FOR EQUALITIES AND
HUMAN RESOURCES FROM COUNCILLOR STEVE BEDSER
E2. Fleet and Waste Management 2
Question:
Will you set out the hourly rates for loaders and drivers for each of the
following categories of employees working in Fleet and Waste
Management:
o Full time Birmingham City Council employees
o “Shadow casual workforce” employed by Birmingham City Council
o Agency staff, that is those sourced via agencies such as First
Personnel?
Answer:
Full Time Drivers £13.81
Full Time Loaders £10.31
Casual Drivers £12.95
Casual Loaders £9.70
Agency Drivers Range : £11.07 - £12.32
Agency Loaders Range : £8.95 - £9.40
Fleet and Waste Management always endeavour to use the most cost effective
agency supplier given availability, etc.

thanks Simon123, the inequality, unfairness continues.
A memo went around regarding the use of agency workers (at least in childrens homes) that agency workers could not be used
this shows the inconsistancies between dept's of the councill .
Well the 29th is 9 days away also end of tax year , be good to post here with any news

CABINET MINUTES -
City Council – 6 December 2011

WRITTEN QUESTION TO THE CABINET MEMBER FOR EQUALITIES AND
HUMAN RESOURCES FROM COUNCILLOR IAN WARD
C1. “Equal pay claims”
Question:
The Court of Appeal has ruled in favour of 174 former council cleaners,
cooks, caterers and care staff, and agreed they can take their compensation
battle to the High Court.
The law firm representing these former employees is of the view that
“The Council is trying, through legal technicalities, to avoid paying what
they owe our clients and in doing so is continuing to waste taxpayers’
money ramping up the legal costs unnecessarily by fighting a hopeless
battle”.
Council taxpayers in Birmingham would be interested to know how much
this legal action has already cost the Council. However, in light of the Court
of Appeal decision, will the Council now settle this matter without further
legal action in the courts?
Answer:
Birmingham City Council has a duty to explore all options in defending equal pay
litigation and to act in the best interests of its council tax payers. Costs claimed
within the litigation have not been agreed and are considered disproportionate.
The council will be challenging these through the appropriate court process.
This is a novel area of law which sets aside established practice over the last 40
years. The authority is taking appropriate legal advice in considering its options.

City Council – 24 May 2011
29
WRITTEN QUESTION TO THE CABINET MEMBER FOR EQUALITIES AND
HUMAN RESOURCES FROM COUNCILLOR SIR ALBERT BORE
C2. Equal pay and Employment Appeal Tribunal
Question:
On 9 May 2011 at a Employment Appeal Tribunal in London, a verdict was
handed down that found on behalf of several thousand women working for
Birmingham City Council in respect to the claim that up to 6 year’s back pay
is payable to these women employees if it is proven that men in jobs of equal
value were paid more than them.
The verdict allows all affected women to put right mistakes on the original
claim forms where, for example, some employees employed as Care
Assistants had been described as Health Care Assistants. The verdict
handed down concluded that mistakes were inevitable. Moreover, several
thousand women claimants in community schools run by the City Council
will now be allowed to compare their wages to men working in jobs of equal
value elsewhere in the Council. In the third main challenge, where the City
Council tried to argue that some of the grievance letters relied upon by the
claimants had technical faults and that the claims should be struck out as a
result, the employment Tribunal found that the grievances were valid.
Can you please inform this Council what steps will now be taken and by
when to ensure that the Council addresses positively the verdict of the
Employment Appeal Tribunal?
Answer:
The Employment Appeal Tribunal hearing was in relation to represented Claimants
who have brought claims for equal pay. During March to September 2009 there
was a series of hearings covering a variety of jurisdictional issues. Judgements
were delivered on 5 November 2009 and the Council appealed certain points to the
Employment Appeal Tribunal (“EAT”) in December 2009 including an issue relating
to women employed in schools. The hearings took place in December 2010 and it
is in this context that judgement was handed down. All employees involved in this
litigation are represented and will be advised by their representatives.

City Council – 24 May 2011

WRITTEN QUESTION TO THE CABINET MEMBER FOR EQUALITIES
AND HUMAN RESOURCES FROM COUNCILLOR MIKE SHARPE
C3. Equal pay, Back pay
Question:
As stated in the written question from Cllr Sir Albert Bore to you, on 9 May
2011 at a Employment Appeal Tribunal in London, a verdict was handed
down that found on behalf of several thousand women working for
Birmingham City Council in respect to the claim that up to 6 year’s back pay
is payable to these women employees if it is proven that men in jobs of equal
value were paid more than them.
Can you inform me whether the City Council has informed everyone who is
eligible and advised them how they can apply for it, or perhaps you are
hoping no one asks and you won’t have to pay these women what they are
entitled to?
Answer:
The Employment Appeal Tribunal hearing was in relation to represented Claimants
who have brought claims for equal pay. During March to September 2009 there
was a series of hearings covering a variety of jurisdictional issues. Judgements
were delivered on 5 November 2009 and the Council appealed certain points to the
Employment Appeal Tribunal (“EAT”) in December 2009 including an issue relating
to women employed in schools. The hearings took place in December 2010 and it
is in this context that judgement was handed down. All employees involved in this
litigation are represented and will be advised by their representatives.

A shameful set of responses from BCC.

just heard may be speculation that BCC are to settle at 80% however will will not get the back pay until 2013 as they are dealing with the no win no fee solicitors the council are dealing cases at 700 a month and still in the region of 15000 to go. so it looks like a long wait

when B.C.C. met with stefan cross last year, their clients were paid their settlement pay within 2 weeks of agreeing.
Now B.C.C. are possibly be going to settle with Thompsons it's only fair we get the same treatment. i never thought i would see the day that the unions would defer to the Council regarding fair treatment of it's members.
Just to clarify Simon 123 you are refering to single status claims?
As we are no wiser re-3/4years allowences owed? It's shocking that B.C.C. can withold wages for this length of time.
Thanks Simon123 because it's been a struggle to get any info,- keep posting,- people are watching for news

The figures given for agency staff are way off the mark with drivers receiving £7.50 an hour and loaders £6.08

hi sally and simon123 information recently recieved is that after the meeting on the 29th march 2012 unions are meeting with some members to make a decision on whether to accept or decline the offer that will be made by bcc,also there is some truth in what you are saying simon123 about no payments being made until 2013 i have heard that the payments will be paid to people who firstly got there greivances in then 2nd then 3rd so in highnsight payments will take a number of years to be paid out,this is totally unacceptable and if the unions had some bottle behind them they wouldnt be agreeing to this stupidness for godsake just payout what you owe bcc !!!!!!!!!

some more info regarding stefan cross allegedly he stated that he would not go to court as long as the payouts for his clients were substantial hence the quick result he got for his 200 clients and bcc still have 6,000 clients to payout does anyone know if there is any truth in this.

we need any reasons for delayed payments in writing

well what a surprise people not !!!!!! the settlement meeting on the 29th march 2012 has been cancelled and re booked for the 5th april what an absolute joke can no on make a decision it makes my blood boil,recieved a letter from thompsons this morning apparently it is due to circumstances beyond there control so are aliens landing from mars jokers !!!!!!!!

what the eck is going on - once again all kept in the dark, I guess stalling tactics and this will go on until after the Local Government Elections - so by all account Labour will have to deal with this hot potato and juggle the city finances.

Do anyone know if bcc has appealed to Supreme Court as they said they would after the Adbulla and other V BCC where they lost the Equal Pay claim at the high court - also Bury, Sunderland any other LA's throughout the UK said they were going to appeal to the Supreme Court Bury and Sunderland cases were to be heard on the 10 March, in Feb both LA's withdrew their application and an agreement was met with Unions and have now been paid out. Also the ones that put their claim via Stefan Cross some two years ago, a meeting with Stefan Cross and BCC was held in Dec 12 and an agreement was met, prior to this no legal action was taken, those cases first wave claim were paid within 4 weeks, the second part (2nd wave) they will get paid june/july 12.

Nothing would suprise me with B.C.C.! some of stefan cross's clients were paid before nov 2011 .
I really think on that glorious day "THE" meeting goes ahead , then a settlement is agreed , we should be paid-a.s.a.p. I believe s. cross's clients were paid in alphabetical order. It would be interesting to ask to attend the meeting on 5th April , apart from that- all we can do is keep this post as high profile as possible.
we are also in the middle of nowhere regards the unpaid -owed darned allowences , people who know me will know how restrained i am being re-more colourful/expressive language i could use. This situation though would make a "Saint" swear grrrrrrrr
keep up the postings becks48 and simon123, we can't let Cllr Rudge's crass "joke" come to fruition.

cllr rudge hmmmmm i wonder if he will keep his job once the shuffle has started he may have to eat his words sooner than he thinks making wise cracks oh sorry joke !!!!!!!!! maybe some of these cllrs should do a shift in a childrens home then maybe he would understand why we are not letting go of what is rightfully ours toffee nose people make me sick they dont know it all its a figment of there imagination oh dear theres another joke !!!!!!!!!! well sally and simon 123 lets keep posting and hopefully we may get results fingers crossed pigs might fly oh god im full of jokes tonight !!!!!!!

A phone call to Thompsons today revelled that the reason that the meeting was postponed was due to a personal issue with a staff member of Thompsons. (Family issue/bereavement) The meeting was not postponed by BCC. This is fact. not a rumour that is posted on this forum. New members whom have joined this forum especially to do with this topic need to realise that scar mongering & spreading gossip is not helpful to anyone. Please have this in mind also that councillors read use this site & I have this on the best authority that BCC monitor this site I would also warn any members if they work for BCC not to post from their Council computer as this is being monitored Birmingham audit.

Charlie you cant be suprised that people's frustration is coming through , some B.C.C. employee's are working side by side with colleagues who have already been paid their single status payments. It's unfortunate that Thompsons had to cancel the meeting for the 29th .I am sorry for the member of staffs loss. However the way B.C.C. has delayed you couldnt blame people for assuming B.C.C. had caused a further delay.
As for councillors reading this site?
I hope people are posting from their own computers, people are entitled to post their concerns as long as they state it is their opinion ,
Charlie you gave good advice on page one of this post, maybe when you know something re- allowences (not single status) you could post here? it will be interesting to see what people thnk of B.C.C. under a labour leader Thanks for info and advice Charlie

well charlie thanks for clearing up the cancellation of the meeting i am sorry for the member of staff for there upset and my thoughts are with them however people have a right to express there frustrations regarding the council in light of how many times they have cancelled meetings and keep people hanging on and on waiting for pay that is rightfully theres maybe if you were in our situation you would appreciate the frustrations or are you in our situation i dont know !!! but thanks for the info ,relating to the cllrs im glad they read what we are saying as maybe they may realise that people do get upset with what they say and also when they comment joke !!! especially if you havent worked in the care system how difficult and stressfull it can be when you try your hardest to do right for a client and then to be told its all down to finances,and also the quote to knew members people have a right to use there voice regardless to knew and old members.

Hang on in there Becks48 , surely as it's almost the end of the financial year, people will hear something from-G.M.B. UNISON.
OR UNITE, about the allowences we are owed.
Re- Charlie's post, made me think maybe the unions read this forum, if so come on whats happening. i have contacted my unon rep .... nothing no reply. All those late shifts, - not getting home till 11pm, - then back on shift 7am next day, to get young people up and into school or in-house education, facing constant abuse ,even threats of violence from 14/15 year old big lads, then working 2 weekends out of 4,- doing our best to get the right outcomes for clients improving their life chances to hopefuly reach their full potential, .... All that to then not be paid for unsocial hours and w'kend allowences. It just isn't fair, we are simply asking for what should have been in our pay packets for almost 48 months , allowences were not a "perk" sat/sun shifts were the same , not home till 11pm sat night , back 7.30am sunday (half hour later sun -no school.) Anyway,- someone must be able to shed a bit of light onto what the bleep is happening?

I am very sorry if my comment offended any one, But I was trying to point out that posting rumours & hear say is doesn’t help any one but causes anxiety. The truth is that unless you are involved with the negotiations (I am not) its all guess work.
I received a phone call this morning from a college who informed me he had received his offer from Stefan Cross for the second wave claim. 2008/11. He has already been paid for the first.

Thanks Charlie, i wasnt offended at all , good advice you gave re- bcc computers.
Doesnt seem fair that ,stefan cross's clients are getting their 2nd payment, they had their 6 year backpay , thompsons clients should be next to get their 6year backpay , then 2008/11 could be paid -inc thompsons
If it was true that other grade 2/3/4 bcc employee's are still getting bonuses , after we were told the bonuses ceased 2008?
well Charlie it's the weekend it's going to be sunny , things could be alot worse , such as the babies dying from malaria that i have just seen on sports relief........but i still want me wages owed, if we had been paid by now my contribution to sport relief would have been bigger.........think on bcc , keep us posted please Charlie

Can anyone tell me where to obtain an equal pay claim form - I am in Unison, do I ask my rep?

yes get a claim form a.s.a.p from your rep or ring the unison office get them to post you one . then find your contract of employment
from when you started if you can , you will need 6 months wage slips,i think you send them with the form , if not thompsons solicitors will ask for them, so sort them out ready to send get it all in dont hesitate , really hope your in time good luck
let us know how you get on

Dear Sally 123

Thank you so much for the info. I will phone Unison first thing tomorrow.